I can sort of understand why people don't want to go to war with Iraq...but I really get the feeling that a lot of them aren't seeing the big picture.
They say that we are putting our own troops in harm's way...however, the fact is overlooked that in the past few engagements that our army has been in, the only deaths to our side have been predominantly due to "friendly fire."
And then there is the arguement that we are putting Iraq's people in danger...BUT, I feel that the danger that Saddam Hussein poses to his own people far outweighs the threat that the US poses to the Iraqi people. He runs his country like a mob boss. He claims to be president elect, when it is quite obvious that the people of his country have no other choice but him.
Iraqi refugees are the US-led war's strongest supporters. How can that be so easily overlooked?
I guess, you could also say that Iraq is taking steps to disarmerment, but it is imperitave to understand that the resolution called for complete compliance. Saddam Hussein has been very reluctant to comply with UN demands. That in itself is a breach of the resolution. He only does enough to satisfy the French who have great interest in Iraq's oil resources. They also provide him with personnel and equipment. One of his most important architects, who intends to re-construct the Tower of Babel for him, is a Frenchman. That is one of many reasons why the French are so reluctant to go to war.
A chief reason that most Middle Eastern countries don't want to go to war is because they run monarchies. If Iraq goes to and is defeated in war, its goverment will more than likely become democratic. This is bad for the rest of the Middle Eastern men in power since they want to stay...in power. A democratic Iraq could lead to a democratic Saudi Arabia and so forth.
I could say a whole lot more about the reasons that war might be the only option.
but in the end, it comes down to:
Saddam needs to be eliminated.
&
Iraq needs a regime change.

"It is far easier to accept a dictatorship when you are not living under it"


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As for the question about Bush's intelligence...I think that he is extremely intelligent and that people underestimate him. People criticize him for not being able to find Bin Laden...But how unreasonable is that? Bin Laden is only ONE person in a world of BILLIONS of people. He's not that important anymore, anyway. His capture at his point would be more symbollic than anything else. I think that people are intimidated by him because he is an aggressive person.
And those that think that weapons inspectors will do any good, I think you need to remember that the whole time N.Korea was revving up their nuclear program, inspectors were there.
And those that think that Saddam needs more time to shape up... he has had OVER TEN YEARS and OVER EIGHTEEN RESOLUTIONS towards his disarmerment.
He's not going to put on a freaking halo within the next four months.





--I hope no one was offended...and I hope I don't sound like a war-monger=_=;; I just get really political when I am so inclined.
Oh, and I don't claim to know everything, so don't try to pin me down with flames/bashing. I'm entitled to my own opinion

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quote:

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Originally posted by roentgen
As for the question about Bush's intelligence...I think that he is extremely intelligent

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King Lear (V.3.300-304)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Crazydeb8ter
and how, may I ask, are you going to support your assertion?

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He doesn't trust Saddam, for one

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There is already discussion on the issue of Iraq in another thread, so I won't directly touch upon it here.

His intelligence is reflected in his policy and his advocacy. There is another thread that also deals with the issue already, but i'll just list off a couple that I have found most grating:

A) Proposal to open up the Tongass National Forest for logging- yes, let's get rid off all the protection afforded to 30% of the world's coastal temperate forests- what a brilliant idea!
B) His tax plan- As I touched upon in the other thread, "Trickle-Down" economics have not worked- ever. Yes, let's give the rich a lot of money and hope they spend it instead giving it to the poor who would definately spend the needed cash to pay for basic necessities!
C) Proposal to cut aid to afganistan- Hmm, now that the taliban is gone, let's be happy and suddenly forget the circumstances under which the taliban was able to accomplish its rise to power- complete political chaos and disorganization. Let's also forget that the US-installed government really has no tangible hold over areas other than that of the capitol. We have full confidence the infant government under Hamid Karzai will be able to secure control and restore peace to the country soon, all on its own. Indeed...
D) The Patriot Act 2- As if our civil liberties have not been hampered and squashed enough by the first patriot act, the administration is pushing for a second patriot act to "heigten the government's ability to track and hunt down terrorists." Effects include: authorizing secret arrests, terminating court orders barring illegal police spying entered before September 11, 2001, without regard to the need for judicial supervision, it would allow secret government wiretaps and searches without even a warrant from the supersecret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court when Congress has authorized the use of force, it would give the government the same access to credit reports as private companies, without judicial supervision, it would allow for the sampling and cataloguing of innocent Americans’ genetic information without court order and without consent, granting immunity to businesses that provide information to the government in terrorism investigations, even if their actions are taken with disregard for their customers’ privacy or other rights and show reckless disregard for the truth, Stripping even native-born Americans of all of the rights of United States citizenship if they provide support to unpopular organizations labeled as terrorist by our government, even if they support only the lawful activities of such organizations, allowing them to be indefinitely imprisoned in their own country as undocumented aliens, creating 15 new death penalties, including a new death penalty for “terrorism” under a definition which could cover acts of protest such as those used by Operation Rescue or protesters at Vieques Island, Puerto Rico, if death results. (more here- http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/Saf...=206&Type=s)
E) Back to the economy for a second= Cutting aid to the poor- war on poverty indeed. Not only will the rich experience huge benefits, but also the poor will face a decrease in programs such as redevelopment of poor areas and neighborhoods, education, and medicaid.
F) Decided to withdraw support from Antiproliferation programs- Now, given that the United States is attempting to assert a doctrine decrying ballistic missiles (and failing), it is strange to have heard that the US was to withdraw all funding from antiprolif organizations. Not only is the "missiles=bad" (or rather, missiles bad in hands of US enemies) stressed now by Administration, but also it was stressed 3 years ago DURING Bush's campaign wherein he promised to reduce the amount of Nuclear warheads in the world. So then, we then would have to think really hard about how the Bush administration's recent interest in exploration new nuclear weapons technologies sit with its original campaign promises.

__________________
ni pour ni contre; ça m'est égal

"The weight of this sad time we must obey,/ Speak what we feel, not what we ought to say./ The oldest hath borne most; we that are young/ Shall never see so much, nor live so long."
King Lear (V.3.300-304)

Last edited by Crazydeb8ter on 03-03-2003 at 11:28 PM

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It is hard to support war in this day and age when it's been proven time and time again that it doesn't make things better. War is just a temporary bandaid placed over a gapping wound and would not change the thoughts and lives behind it for the better.

What does Bush propose to do AFTER the war? How is he going to help the Iraq? The same way he has vowed to help Afghanistan??? He has left too many questions unanswered. Until he can give answers to these questions, I cannot in right mind support what he wants to do.

--this is just my humble opinion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by roentgen

They say that we are putting our own troops in harm's way...however

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quote:

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Originally posted by aznkid1008
....man r the people who said this retarded or just plain stupid? wat do u think a soldier is trained for? to fight either kill or be killed. wat we hav soldier just to look at them and brag about our army?!? wtf r these people smoking...

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rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman

And, yes, we do have soldiers to look at them and brag, it's called conventional deterrence, and it's not as dumb as you make it seem...as if the people who thought of it are smoking or soemthing to come to this absurd logic. We have soldiers so we can be powerful, not to just kill, not to just be killed, and not to just brag, it's all working together to make us a powerful nation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by aznkid1008
alrite let me bring history into this. D-Day the largest air, land, and sea operation in the history of the world. we had thousands of men drop from the sky and land on the beaches by sea. thousands of thousands of men died. the government knew this. the first wave of men of the beaches knew their chances of survival is a snowballs chance in hell. we lost alot of men on that day and yet we had 2. yes we brag but is that the MAIN purpose of an army? no we use it to kick ass. We started a war wit Iraq that we never finished, Sadam cannot be trusted, and Saddam is oppressin his people. my personally idea is we should go in because if we dont make the first move Iraq will not stay quiet forever wit Saddam in power. Its somethin that we never ended and therefore its somethin we hav 2 do since what we start we should finish. and let me ask u this would u rather hav soldiers that r trained for danger and combat in danger or civilians in danger of a bio strike in a major city?

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yes, alchemist brings up a good point.

Furthermore, since when were we talking about the MAIN purpose? we were just talking about purposes, and i said there were a multitude, and you conceded to that. That's all that really matters in these two posts, cause that's what they were about. Your other stuff is really extraneous if put into the context that it is in but i'll answer anyway...i guess.

Why have you all of a sudden assumed i am anti-war with iraq? This is all really irrelevent in context now...so, of course i'd rather have soldiers in danger than civilians. But that doesn't do anything for you.

__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

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quote:

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Originally posted by roentgen
If Iraq goes to and is defeated in war, its goverment will more than likely become democratic. This is bad for the rest of the Middle Eastern men in power since they want to stay...in power. A democratic Iraq could lead to a democratic Saudi Arabia and so forth.

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__________________
ni pour ni contre; ça m'est égal

"The weight of this sad time we must obey,/ Speak what we feel, not what we ought to say./ The oldest hath borne most; we that are young/ Shall never see so much, nor live so long."
King Lear (V.3.300-304)

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman

Why have you all of a sudden assumed i am anti-war with iraq? This is all really irrelevent in context now...so, of course i'd rather have soldiers in danger than civilians. But that doesn't do anything for you.

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the fool is the one who thinks he is wise, yet the wise one is the one who thinks he is a fool

Remember the heros
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Remember the day
God bless

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quote:

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Originally posted by aznkid1008
where did i assume u were anti-war? i just wanted 2 say wat i thought isnt that wat we r supposed 2 do....im just tryin 2 make sense out of wat the protesters r sayin. i mean even after 9/11 there were people protestin not 2 go 2 war in Afgan someone explain that 2 me? we just had 2000 civilians get killed and people protest, im not seein their reasonin. plz someone explain their point because im just confused at their protestin

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quote:

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Originally posted by aznkid1008
where did i assume u were anti-war? i just wanted 2 say wat i thought isnt that wat we r supposed 2 do....im just tryin 2 make sense out of wat the protesters r sayin. i mean even after 9/11 there were people protestin not 2 go 2 war in Afgan someone explain that 2 me? we just had 2000 civilians get killed and people protest, im not seein their reasonin. plz someone explain their point because im just confused at their protestin

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__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

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srry im not a man thats well wit words
its alot easier when im on the phone or face 2 face cause then u get my expressions. as we all kno an example is sarcasm doesnt work well on the internet.

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the fool is the one who thinks he is wise, yet the wise one is the one who thinks he is a fool

Remember the heros
Remember the lives
Remember the day
God bless

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quote:

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Originally posted by aznkid1008
srry im not a man thats well wit words
its alot easier when im on the phone or face 2 face cause then u get my expressions. as we all kno an example is sarcasm doesnt work well on the internet.

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quote:

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Originally posted by aznkid1008
srry im not a man thats well wit words
its alot easier when im on the phone or face 2 face cause then u get my expressions. as we all kno an example is sarcasm doesnt work well on the internet.

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__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

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