What's everyones take on this? Should it still be around? Yes, or no? Does it actually hinder job opportunity for non-minorities?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chil


it is nearly impossible for discrimination NOT to happen in the work environment. Whether we believe it or not, seeing unfit people getting promoted to higher positions and hard working ethnic minorities still in thier same job after years and years still happens today. Though it is a hidden and unspoken dilema, without affirmative action how can minorities be given a chance. Getting a job or placement in a school just because of affirmative action at leasts gives minorities a chance. If not, how can one expect to compete in this world on just qualifications alone. It's not practical yet because we don't live in a perfect society, it is neccessary that these laws and regulations stay instigated.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman


Minorities can be given a chance by working harder and actually BEING better than the people residing in the norm of society that may get the promotion due to some discrimination. In modern day, i'm sure the more qualified person will most likely get the job. It's not in the majority for people to be racist anymore. Aff action was set in a time that we needed it heavily, and the overall objective of the law was to change the mentality of a nation. Now that the coming generations have a substantially less racist mentality, there is no purpose for the law. And thus, by prolonging an outdated law we are enabling what is known as "reverse discrimination." A forced chance is a chance, but minorities can get chances despite this law and can. This isn't utopian today.

How can one expect to compete in this world on just qualifications?
-Simple, by working hard to be better than everyone else and simply being more qualified than the others. What would you want it to be based upon? Special treatment in the event of a minority and qualifications only for the majority?

How can minorities be expected to be given a chance?
-The same way the majority of people do, work hard and earn your promotion rather than receive it upon special treatment. Chances are given to everyone mostly in today, and if a bias was found within a firm i'm sure something would be done about it in court. Again, this isn't utopian.

The law is simply outdated i believe. Let's try a revocation of the law and see what happens in major companies. My guess is that the ratios of ethnicities will be relatively the same. You can't change peoples subconcious mentalities towards who they want to hire. But if someone clearly outdoes the other, the minority should never be picked on outside appearances.

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hah, ooooh i have been reduced to a highschool idealist by Winston. Pobrecito hehe. Anyway, perhaps they chose upon character and the interview of the job. Certain people prioritize certain aspects over others when choosing jobs, and sometimes yes race though i don't think it happens as much as people say it does. When i say qualifications i was implying the interviewing and stuff. For people that draw names from hats, aff action wouldn't help that either. You can never be sure that race was the factor. How would one know? By hearing some riled up, rejected, would-be employee muttering "ahhh they are racist" under their breath? We don't need a perfect society, only a society that thinks relatively similar. The dissimilarity you speak of i believe will dissolve in the near future when the new generation begins to take positions as employers. And, I'm not sure the most qualified will get the position, i'm saying they probably will. Humans subconciously judge upon of appearance, thats given. But only an absent-minded person would choose a lesser qualified person with a worse interview (hoho including the interview ) over a qualified minority with a decent interview....the term rugged individualism comes to mind.

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er, hate to sound stupid, but what exactly are we talking about here? affirmative action?? :huh:

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haha, yes huby . We are talking about Affirmative action. Basically a rundown of whats going on since me and my bro are the only people posting...putting words in your mouth will be coincidental if i do, apologies in advance:

Chil - We need aff action because people are racist all over. qualifications won't get you anywhere since the racism is there. What i say is idealist and basically not true since the majority of people are racist so we need to force them to be equal with a law or else "minorities won't get a chance"

Me - We don't need aff action because it conducts whats called "reverse discrimination." Special attention should never be given to race and never supercede any "real" qualifications a person may have. Aff action was put in place to change the mentality of a nation and i think it has for the majority of it all. In today's world, it can easily deny a more qualified person of the majority a job and is nothing short of discrimination against the norm.

Thought i'd some it up as a mod haha, cause well no one ever reads my long posts and most posts here are long, even this one to some extent...kuda.

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We don't need affirmitive action. Interviews should be conducted through a wall in which the interviewer cannot see the inteviewee. Thus, the system would be totally based on merit and we won't have situations like a slightly less qualified minority getting the job over someone that is more qualified.
Race, yes that is an issue, but for the sake of efficiency and for the health of our businesses, we need the BEST to be working for us. We do not want a medium-rate person who got in just because of his race. Everything should be based on a standard, and that standard is merit.

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"The weight of this sad time we must obey,/ Speak what we feel, not what we ought to say./ The oldest hath borne most; we that are young/ Shall never see so much, nor live so long."
King Lear (V.3.300-304)

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in interview, they look more at personality than merit
merit has usually be defined and evaluated by phone interviews
afterwards they look at personality
that is when trouble comes in I think.
idealy we need best people to be working for us. But i don't think it's feasible or plausible that during the interview, the best person is always selected. Then there is also the argument some peopel bring up that minorities like blacks haven't been given the chance. There is racism in hiring, there is racism in the work force
dont' believe me, how come so many jewish people are in finance
how come there are very few blacks in IT divisions?
how come there are so many indians in IT?
How come many of the top executives(and i can list many of them from top financial firms) are white males
how come there are more men than women in the work force(where do all the women go, in college there is more women than men usually, they seem to disappear after that)
i mean if these issues can reasonable be answered that they are the best possible candidate, then fine. Affirmative action has no place, but then why r there people who have no clue what they are doing being hired?
I could list several examples from top financial firms on wall street on this.

psycho, u deleted one of my posts



and don't generalize what i say
u reduced urself to a highschool idealist dave, i never said it.

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i didn't delete any of your posts, which one are you talking about?

I may be a high schol idealist in your eyes, but the republicans are on my side haha. And actually you did say it hahaha i didn't do it to myself cause you were the one who stated it. And you, though i have not said it, have reduced yourself to a common antiquited victicrat who refuses to shed light upon that which has sunshine already(heh ho, i like that analogy a lot i think i'll use it in one of my IB papers )

i generalized what you said so that people didn't have to read the long posts, people tend not to when they get longer winstone. Thats why someone asked what the whole thread was about cause they didn't really read it and just wanted it summed up (i assumed that part, twas no trouble). It was just to get the basic idea of your argument, was there really anything i generalized wrongly? I generalized my argument to and it wasn't biased. I even used a partial quote from you.

though on:

1) certain ethnic groups dominating a field, don't you think that has to do with the massive amount of people that study these subjects in contrast to the small percentage of what you say don't have a chance. They do have a chance, but more often the people of that dominated ethnicity are chosen instead because well there is a whole lot more odds for them to be chosen (because or not because of bias). You studied CS in college, you saw how many indian-esque people were there. So few blacks in IT could very well constitute very few blacks heading towards the IT direction.

When people say for instance "black people haven't been given a chance" that means more often translation through all the bigotry..."black people haven't been given special consideration." Thats aff action, and they were given a chance most likely.

Is it possible the people being hired who you say have no clue are of the rareity? Es probable pero puedas dar los ejemplos. You could list the example if you'd like

lata, off to la practica de tenis.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman
i didn't delete any of your posts, which one are you talking about?

I may be a high schol idealist in your eyes, but the republicans are on my side haha. And actually you did say it hahaha i didn't do it to myself cause you were the one who stated it. And you, though i have not said it, have reduced yourself to a common antiquited victicrat who refuses to shed light upon that which has sunshine already(heh ho, i like that analogy a lot i think i'll use it in one of my IB papers )

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the big words weren't to impress you or anyone, and they don't cloud the message. The word choice i use is how i write, plus i don't feel like writing primitively just so you can't say "big words don't impress [you]." Read it for the content and "come again" here.

BTW, i tend to write long posts if you hadn't noticed. I thank you for saying my words mean nothing (facetiously). I sure wish i had a chance...there should be a law that makes people read every message, otherwise how would people who write a lot get a chance in this society? facetiously of course again, read this if you want and read the preceding post of mine if you want, and reply...if you want


ALSO, this is open to everyone else to voice their opiniones so...Hey, COME ON! heh ho, yes that was lame.

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i don't see any big words...

but i STILL don't know what the hell we're talking about.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman
the big words weren't to impress you or anyone, and they don't cloud the message. The word choice i use is how i write, plus i don't feel like writing primitively just so you can't say "big words don't impress [you]." Read it for the content and "come again" here.

BTW, i tend to write long posts if you hadn't noticed. I thank you for saying my words mean nothing (facetiously). I sure wish i had a chance...there should be a law that makes people read every message, otherwise how would people who write a lot get a chance in this society? facetiously of course again, read this if you want and read the preceding post of mine if you want, and reply...if you want


ALSO, this is open to everyone else to voice their opiniones so...Hey, COME ON! heh ho, yes that was lame.

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yada yada yada yada yada

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ignorance is bliss

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wow... you two know each other or something?... you talk so casually to each other...

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word is bond

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haha ...Quizas.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman
ignorance is bliss

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haha, you sound happy...

just kidding, don't take offense haha.

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word is bond

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chil


blah blah blah blah

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman


haha, ok. I really need to get a dictionary to decipher this prattle. Hm hm.

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